I just finished reading Erasing Hell by Francis Chan, and it really made me think about how I view God. For example, it asks the question whether or not I can believe in a God that can create people just for the purpose of sending them to hell in order to show His power.
And you know what? I don't want to believe that! I don't want to believe that there are people on this planet that are going to hell just because God wants to show how great He is. That doesn’t seem fair to me. It doesn’t even seem right really. Well, and the book does a great job of showing this, God’s sense of justice and purpose is not the same as mine.
The Bible passage this comes from is Romans 9. Basically, it’s a chapter explaining that because God has a higher purpose in mind than just what we want, He can do things His way to accomplish what it is that He sets out to do.
This brings to mind a lot of questions but the biggest one is about your view of God. Specifically, how high is your view of God? What I mean by that is, how supreme do you think God is? If you think that God does what humans want, then you have a very low view of God. If you think that God has final say so in everything that happens, then you have a high view of God.
In order to explain the proper view of God, Paul uses the example of a potter and some clay in Romans 9:21-24. Can some clay say to the potter that is making it how it should be molded? No! The potter is in charge. If the potter wants to make one lump of clay into a vase to put roses in and another lump of clay into a discs to shoot with a shotgun, then that is entirely in his right as the potter.
It’s the same way with humans. God has made some to experience redemption and salvation, while others He has made to experience His wrath and destruction. And so it is not whether or not DO I like believing in a God who does this, but, as Erasing Hell talks about, CAN I believe this.
Can I believe what the Bible says is true? Can I take what it says as truth? Even the tough parts and the passages that I just don’t want to believe? Yes. Yes I can. I know I can because of what I have seen God do in my life. I can believe the parts about God’s sense of justice because His wrath is equal with His love. God loves me and cares for me. I trust Him to do what He declares is right because His justice is true, unlike mine which is perverted by sin.
I am selfish, prideful, and arrogant. So I submit to the King whose authority is absolute. And even though I don’t have a clear view of God’s justice and love, I trust that my King will reveal these things to me.
so do you think that the "objects of wrath" ever had a chance at experiencing forgiveness or redemption? and what about Job, you could say he was raised up and then destroyed like the pharaoh
ReplyDeletementioned earlier in the passage, but he repented, what if the pharaoh repented like Job did?
Let's broaden the scope when it comes to dealing with this. If Pharaoh had repented of his sin, then he would not have endured the wrath of God. But what I am saying is that Pharaoh was made so as not to repent. That God created Pharaoh for the purpose of Pharaoh's hardened heart in order that the Israelite's could be used to show the greatness of God. So, in the end it's not whether or not Pharaoh repented but do you believe that God could create a situation that intentionally led to real people going to hell in order to show just how great God is?
ReplyDeleteyes but on the condition that no matter what he did he couldnt change the pharaohs heart without disrupting his plans. to put it another way: Could the Pharaoh have changed but God knew he wouldnt so he used him as an "object of wrath" this includes The Pharaohs will, but God's unlimited knowledge. But it never said the Pharaoh went to Hell (i dont think) like with job he could have been torn down but he could have realized his mistakes and could have been saved (although Job was already a believer, he just came to a new understanding of God) im not saying this happened but could it have.
ReplyDeleteI think that if it was God's plan to have Pharaoh repent then he definitely would have. Whether or not God used Pharaoh as an object of wrath because it was His plan or because Pharaoh was unrepentant depends on your view of God. I believe the Bible teaches that it was the former. I don't think that Pharaoh could have changed because it was God's will to let it come to pass a certain way. I think that there is a practical and spiritual side of actions. Spiritually, God has a plan to accomplish certain events. They are predestined because that's what the Bible says. Practically, people still have to make those decisions. So we make up our minds for one thing but in the end, God has it all figured. With Pharaoh, he made the decision to do those things, but God had hardened his heart to accomplish His will.
ReplyDeleteJob is just the opposite of Pharaoh. He was used as an object of wrath not by God, but by Satan, although your point still remains valid because in the end, his suffering was to show how great God is.
In the end, I'm not certain of all these things, but I trust God to take care of it. I'm not 100% sure of predestination or freewill because that would be arrogant to think I knew the absolute answer in this issue. People have been arguing this for over 1000 years and a comment on a blog wont answer that. Anyway, that's what I think.
i know this blog wont answer it I just like to hear ideas and how my ideas may be flawed and how to reinforce them or if need be change them. But the first statement you said is baisically what i mean. God had his plan, but the Pharaoh made his choices of his own will.
ReplyDeleteIt is necessary to have a stance on theology. As we grow and develop as Christians we learn more that refines what we believe. It's like looking in a foggy mirror and as time passes, we start to see more clearly. Now we can barely see God, but as we mature, we see Him more clearly.
ReplyDeletenice change of subject
ReplyDelete